Attention fans of the music of Guy Clark, Townes Van Zandt, and Susanna Clark
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On the eighth anniversary of Guy Clark’s passing away on May 17, 2016 at age 74
By Steven Brodsky
…These recordings are accessible here today in memory of Guy Clark:
Posted 5-17-24
Attention fans of the music of Guy Clark, Townes Van Zandt, and Susanna Clark: ‘Without Getting Killed Or Caught: A Documentary By Tamara Saviano & Paul Whitfield’ is available for on-demand streaming
By Steven Brodsky
… This 95-minute documentary is touching, revealing, and superbly produced.
Two Entertainment Culture and More interviews with Tamara Saviano are reposted below.
Posted 2-23-22
Revisiting With Tamara Saviano, Author of ‘Without Getting Killed or Caught: The Life and Music of Guy Clark’
By Steven Brodsky
The desire to connect with the essence, life history, and contributions of Guy Clark continues to intensify since his passing on May 17, 2016. Guy Clark was the hub of a world of artistic activity for some of America’s most revered and substantive songwriters and performers. For them and many of his other fans, he set an elevated standard of what uncompromising artistic expression is all about. Tamara Saviano’s book Without Getting Killed or Caught: The Life andMusic of Guy Clark is essential reading—for those seeking to further their knowledge and understanding of Guy and his life’s work.
In common with others experiencing the intensification, I watched two documentaries on DVD that contain Guy Clark footage: Heartworn Highways (released in 1976) and Heartworn Highways Revisited (released in 2017). The video captures of the younger and older Guy prompt me to reflect that we are all desperados waiting for a train. Life isn’t standing still.
It’s been a while since our last interview with Tamara Saviano. (The prior interview is currently accessible on this page. Scroll down to read it.) In preparation for this revisit with Tamara read Without Getting Killed or Caught again, taking the time to really savor the chapters—an indulgence with a reward of experiencing this excellent biography in a deeper and more affecting way. Without Getting Killed or Caught: TheLife and Music of Guy Clark answers many questions you may have about a major songwriting force—a man whose songs and spirit continue to touch the lives of fans and master songwriters alike, despite the train’s departure with an incredibly talented and creatively-giving passenger.
Tamara, it was enriching and thought-provoking to dwell among the pages of your book. Thank you for writing this biography and for reconnecting with our readers. What memories associated with the writing and research of this book tend to be the most potent and reoccurring to you?
The time I spent with Guy at his house. For the last 4 or 5 years of his life, I was over at his place several days a week. Guy was eager for me to finish the book and told me repeatedly that he wasn’t going to be around when the book was published so we needed to work while we could. I wanted to procrastinate but he didn’t let me get away with it. The memories of sitting with him at the kitchen table are powerful and I’m grateful to have them.
What are your most joyous memories associated with Guy?
Oh, so many. Sitting at the kitchen table, listening to him try to learn to play his mandola, talking with him about the books we were reading, driving around Texas with him. There are also things that still make me giggle. Guy loved those little bottles of 5-hour Energy drinks and sent me to the store to buy them for him constantly. Every time one of those bottles catches my eye at the grocery it makes me laugh.
What gave Guy the most satisfaction in life?
Writing songs, playing songs, and listening to other songwriters.
What were the most difficult decisions about what to include and exclude in the book?
As the years went by and I got deeper and deeper into Guy’s world, what interested me the most was his childhood, his influence as a songwriter, his recording career, and the relationship between Guy, Susanna and Townes. I decided to stick with those topics. I hope my book won’t be the last on Guy and perhaps another author can tell other stories.
The song “The High Price of Inspiration,” co-written by Guy, lyricizes that getting high was a costly muse. Did Guy ever open up to you and to himself about the reasons behind his use of drugs and alcohol?
Oh yes, we talked about it all the time. I am not a drinker or drug user. I have a little wine with dinner when I go out with friends but I don’t drink at home and actually have a bit of a phobia about drugs. Guy could not wrap his head around that and sometimes tried to peer pressure me into partying with him. I did it once and that was enough. One day we were talking about drugs as muse and I told Guy I thought that was a weak excuse and that I believed he could write great songs without being high. Guy said, “Maybe, but why would I even want to try?” He enjoyed getting high. After he finished chemotherapy he lost his taste for alcohol and it pissed him off until the very end.
Some songwriters from Guy’s world have cleaned up. They continue to write outstanding songs. Could Guy have imagined that he could have done the same?
He didn’t have the desire to clean up. He enjoyed getting high.
Your book contains this journal entry by Susanna: “Guy Clark has an uneasy relationship with the truth. He will never be able to tell me the truth. He’ll never be shiny to me.” Do you know what she meant by this?
The relationship between Guy and Susanna was up and down although there is no doubt they loved each other very much. Guy was a stoic West Texas hard-ass (although he was a real softie by the end of his life) and he rarely showed Susanna his vulnerable side. Susanna craved a closer and intimate connection and I don’t know that she ever got that from Guy. That’s where Townes came in. The documentary we are producing focuses on that relationship between the three of them.
Are there areas of inquiry that you wish you had explored more fully with Guy and others interviewed for the book?
No. I’m getting deeper into that relationship triangle in the film and frankly I’ll be glad when we’re finished. I’ve been living in Guy Clark world for two decades and I’m ready to move on.
Susanna Clark is quoted in the book as having said that Townes was “the yardstick” of songwriting quality for Guy. How did Townes and Guy impact each other’s songwriting?
I don’t know if Guy impacted Townes but Guy always said that Townes was his favorite songwriter and inspired him. Even a few months before his death Guy repeated that. He said that he did not want to write like Townes or be like Townes but he aspired to write songs that would touch people the way Townes’s songs touched him.
Guy, for a number of songwriters, was the ultimate collaborator. Why did he and Townes not co-write (to completion) any songs?
Guy said they tried to write a song together once and it was “a fucking disaster.” My opinion is that Guy was a serious, serious songwriter. He sat down and wrote songs and treated it as a serious pursuit to find the right combination of words and phrasing. Townes sort of caught songs from the universe as they flew by.
Of songwriters Guy never worked with, are there a few that you think would have been especially good co-writing matchups?
I would have loved Guy to write with Ron Sexsmith. I don’t think they ever met but that would have pleased me. Guy always joked that Kristofferson said he was going to come over to write and Guy said he was still waiting. Because I know both Guy and Kris well I would have loved to see them write together but I’m not sure it would have worked out. They are different from each other in many ways.
You grew increasingly close to Guy while writing WithoutGetting Killed or Caught. How did this affect you personally and as Guy’s biographer?
There came a point that I had to admit to myself and my publisher that I was personally involved to the point where it would affect the manuscript. That is why Part 3 of the book is memoir. I could write straight biography up to the point where Guy and I met but after that there was no way to write objectively. I was thrilled when my publisher agreed that we could shape the manuscript to be two parts biography and one part memoir.
Subsequent to Guy’s passing on May 17, 2016, which of Guy’s songs do you listen to the most?
Because I’m writing, producing and directing a documentary on Guy, I’m still immersed in his catalog. I think it will be more interesting to see what I’m listening to a few years from now after I’ve stepped out of Guy world for a bit. Having said that, “Dublin Blues,” “She Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere” and “My Favorite Picture of You” are pretty constant around here.
You co-produced the double-disc This One’s for Him: A Tribute toGuy Clark. It won Album at the Year at the 2012 Americana Music Awards and was also a Grammy nominee. What are some of your favorite recollections regarding your work on ThisOne’s for Him, the artists involvement with it, and Guy’s response to the project and the subsequent acclaim for the double-CD that ensued after its release?
Wow, making that album was so much fun and it brings me joy to think back on it. The most fun part was that I was working with Verlon Thompson, Shawn Camp and Jen Gunderman throughout the entire record. Shawn and I were co-producers and he was the leader of the house band. Verlon played guitar in the house band and Jen played keyboard and accordion. Having three of my dearest friends on the journey is the sweetest thing. Secondly, all of the artists were happy to be there to celebrate Guy and it was a ball to work with all of them. Last, it was fun to share the recordings with Guy as we finished them. To see the happy look on his face and hear him say “Wow, that is FAR-OUT” made me happy. Guy’s favorite track on the record is Terri Hendrix’s version of “The Dark.” He listened to that piece a lot when he was in the nursing home at the end of his life.
What feedback about the book has been most gratifying to you?
I’m happy that people seem to like it but I’m most grateful that I don’t have to write it again. It was the most difficult and gratifying work of my life.
Without Getting Killed or Caught is published by Texas A&M University Press: www.tamupress.com.
Posted August 15, 2018, Reposted 2-23-22
Tamara Saviano, Author of ‘Without Getting Killed or Caught: The Life and Music of Guy Clark’
By Steven Brodsky
Congratulations on your new book, Without Getting Killed or Caught: The Life and Music of Guy Clark. It was years in the making. What surprised you most about the journey of getting the book written?
The biggest surprise to me is that I actually finished it. I didn’t believe I would until the day I turned it in to the publisher. If I hadn’t told so many people I was writing this book, I would have quit. It was a massive undertaking and I felt overwhelmed during the writing process.
You first heard a Guy Clark album, Old No. 1, when you were fourteen. How did that listening experience affect you?
It started my love affair with Texas songwriters and of Texas in general. I grew up in Wisconsin, in an industrial town where my family and most of my friends’ parents worked at factories. Guy made Texas sound romantic to me. “She Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere” immediately became the theme song for my teenage angst. “She ain’t goin’ nowhere, she’s just leavin’.” Man. That’s what I wanted to do. Just leave.
Was exposure to Guy Clark’s records a factor in your choosing music journalism, production, and publicity as your profession?
Maybe. I loved music from an early age and I believe that music overall had a big hand in it. When I was a kid I wanted to write for Rolling Stone, Sports Illustrated and Playboy.
Guy Clark supported the biography. He did not want a hagiography. You did not write one. Tell us about his support.
No one was more surprised than me that Guy agreed to my terms. I asked him to cooperate fully and introduce me to all his family, friends and colleagues and ask them to cooperate without Guy having approval on the final manuscript. When we started, I didn’t believe he’d give me anything but our first interview he told me about his girlfriend Bunny’s suicide and how he then married Bunny’s sister Susanna. He was not afraid to talk about the hard stuff and we talked about it over and over and over again.
Did Guy indicate discomfort about any of your research?
No. He was surprised at some of the things I discovered but seemed happy when I brought him new treasures that I found at his family’s home in Rockport or from research libraries.
You wrote: “Guy Clark was never one to wear his heart on his sleeve. He was taught from a young age to be stoic; to observe the West Texas credo,‘stand up and be a man.’ He learned one should put up a strong façade no matter what he is feeling inside.” Was this reflected in his responses to your interview questions?
No, and that was the most surprising thing about working on the book. Guy and I had intimate conversations. At first it threw me because that was not the Guy I knew. We started working on the book after he was diagnosed with lymphoma and I believe he was feeling mortal. He told me it was time to set the record straight.
You included some very tender diary entries of Susanna Clark, Guy’s wife. Tell us about those.
Guy handed me a box of Susanna’s journals after she died. I asked him if he had read them and he said no. I asked if he was sure he wanted me to have them and use them. He said: “Yes. I’m not out to rewrite the truth, Tamara.”
Was Guy jealous of Susanna’s love for Townes Van Zandt?
He may have been jealous at times but for the most part I believe he just accepted it as part of Susanna’s and Townes’s personalities and he loved them both. They annoyed him sometimes and he didn’t understand their collective sensitivities but he loved both of them more than he loved anyone else.
Were you always comfortable being privy to highly personal information about Guy, Susanna, and Townes?
No, I was often uncomfortable. I tried to comprehend it but never got to that place. I think about my own marriage and how tight my husband and I are…no one else is getting into our marriage, you know? Yet, Guy confessed that Townes took some of the pressure off of him to have to be the husband Susanna wanted. Guy’s stoicism was difficult for Susanna. And, of course, they all drank and took many drugs. I’m sure that shit didn’t make things any easier.
How difficult was it for you to decide what is appropriate to include in the book?
Difficult. A reviewer already called me out for not explicitly saying whether or not Townes and Susanna were involved sexually. I decided that the story is compelling enough without sensationalizing it. People can read between the lines. In the end, I just remembered that it was my book and my story to tell in the way I wanted to tell it. And I knew I was doing it with Guy’s full consent and that’s what mattered most to me.
Susannna famously served as muse for some Guy Clark songs. For those not familiar with Guy’s music, speak about one or two of those songs and how they came about.
Susanna was a muse for Guy, Townes and many others including Rodney Crowell and Steve Earle. I came to the conclusion that half the writers in Nashville and Austin were in love with Susanna. Guy wrote about her often, the most recent being “My Favorite Picture of You,” the title track to his last album, which won a Grammy. Guy’s co-writer Gordy Sampson came to Guy’s house with the title and the minute Guy heard the title he turned around and pulled a Polaroid picture of Susanna from the wall and they wrote about that picture.
An early song Guy wrote about Susanna is “Coat From the Cold.” Guy stopped singing that song long ago because he said it was paternalistic and he couldn’t believe he actually wrote it. “The lady beside me is the one I have chosen to walk through my life like a coat from the cold.” Guy said: “What the fuck was I thinking? Like Susanna didn’t have any choice in the matter.”
A photo of a strikingly beautiful Susanna taken around 1957 appears in the book, courtesy of Guy. If the lyrics of “My Favorite Picture of You” are fully true to life, this photo wasn’t Guy’s favorite of Susanna. What photos (whether of Susanna or others) in the book are most significant to you?
I love the photo of Susanna in the yellow turtleneck and the debutante black and white photo the best. I think it’s because I’ve sort of romanticized the young Susanna. I try to imagine what she would have done had she not gotten involved with Guy and Townes. In some ways, I think they ruined her. Not that it wasn’t her choice, it was, but, she may have reached greater heights personally and professionally without them. Even with them, she was a successful songwriter and painter but I do believe Susanna’s love for these two men held her back. She jumped into a relationship with Guy when she was grieving her sister’s suicide. Maybe with a little time and distance before doing that, she would have made different choices. Of course, we’ll never know and that’s just me romanticizing what might have been.
Guy had the highest regard for quality of artistic expression. What instilled this in him?
His young life in Rockport, Texas was the start of it. Guy and his family read poetry around the kitchen table after dinner. He participated in poetry invitationals, read monologues, wrote essays and fell in love with the written word as a young man. As he matured he read beat poets and literature and dictionaries and thesauruses. Seriously, Guy would pick up the Dictionary of American Slang and just start reading from page one. When he went to Houston and met Townes Van Zandt and Mickey Newbury, that inspired him to start writing songs and his quest to write, read and hear quality literature and songs stayed with him until the day he died. Guy is famous for saying to young songwriters “Do you want to be an artist or do you want to be a star?” He didn’t think there was anything wrong with wanting to be a star but it’s a different approach. Artists are not willing to compromise in the way stars have to compromise with their material and their images.
Guy was very helpful to other songwriters. Cite an example of this that appears in your book.
Lyle Lovett is probably the most famous example. Someone slipped Guy a demo tape of Lyle’s and Guy copied that tape and handed it out to everyone he knew in Nashville. And he had never met Lyle. He thought it was that good and that someone needed to pay attention and give Lyle a publishing and record deal. And that’s exactly what happened. Guy gave Tony Brown at MCA the tape and Tony signed Lyle.
What song written or co-written by Guy, was Guy most proud of?
Guy’s favorite song he ever wrote was “She Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere.” He said it just came out easily and he loves the message of it.
Of his songs covered by others, which were his favorites?
Slim Pickens’s spoken word version of “Desperados Waiting for a Train” was Guy’s favorite cover of one of his songs. He also loved Terri Hendrix’s cover of “The Dark.” Those are two that stuck with him.
Which song most meaningfully reflects the person you came to know as a result of writing Without Getting Killed or Caught: The Life and Music of Guy Clark?
“Stuff That Works.” It fits Guy perfectly.